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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.24 21:11:00 -
[1]
Personally I find the +1k grid for the mega a little too less considering that rails and lasers have essentially the same powergrid stats.
The 50 less cpu a apoc get's isn't really a argument for it's higher grid - if the apoc fit's a photonic enhancer it will have FAR more cpu than the mega, while if the mega fits a reactor control it will not be even close to the grid of the apoc.
A grid of 13.5 seems to be about right for the mega IMO.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.24 21:58:00 -
[2]
@ Alyssia: To my knowledge the Apoc has 2 missle slots as well.
@ Valeria: That is because people are dumb and thinking lvl2 = better without comparing that stats first. Like "Hey, it's more expansive and it's lvl2, it MUST be better" or "1 more turret - it deals more damage"..
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.24 22:29:00 -
[3]
Ah, now I see.
Apoc would be severly overpowered with 5 med slots. And a bigger drone bay - but drones are pretty insignificat for BS IMO.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.24 22:56:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 24/08/2003 22:58:49
- the mega has nowhere near as much powergrid
- 550 less armor
- lower cap
Please don't only see what the apoc doesn't has, but what it has, too.
And no, I does NOT need more power. Noone forces you to use the biggest powerdraining setup.
And you can use other turrets, too - a apoc can deal actually more damage with rails that a mega can, since it can mount more 425 and can fire them longer due to it's bigger cap.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.25 01:40:00 -
[5]
 Quote:
Megathron can fit as many tachs(and 425mmrails) as apoca can, if you have eng IV, and with new stats.
Reality check?
4 * 3750 = 15k
Mega grid: 12k; with eng4: 14.4k
Apoc grid: 15k; with eng4: 18k
Quote:
Now, I actually find cpu a bigger problem with apoca/armageddon, and guess what, megathron now has 50 more cpu then apoca!
Granted, the CPU is the biggest problem with the Apoc. Or, wait, "the sole problem" would be better here - since the apoc has already the biggest armor, the biggest cap (and fastest recharge) and the biggest grid.
And 50 more cpu is a *tiny* difference. If the Apoc would have as much CPU less than the mega has less powergrid it would have 440, not 500. And you can enhance your CPU easily - there are 29% enhancers out there - but the best for grid are 10%.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.25 02:11:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 25/08/2003 02:50:11
Quote:
My mistake, I made it 14k(3500 each) rather then 3750.
[nitpick mode on]
Then the apoc would be able to fit 5 and the mega 4 - still more.
[nitpick mode off]
And for the "mega does not need a cpu enhancer" - let me see...
550 base, 660 with electronics 4
3 425, 4 250 rails: 393; with lvl4 weapon ups: 315
4 heavy neutron, 3 250 rails: 434; with lvl4 weapon ups: 348
1 large SB, 3 SH: 191
1 large SB, 1 MWD, 2 SH: 222
5 damagemods, 2 cap relays: 171
Total: 677 - 741
Again, reality check? Please test things before you say something. Thank you.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.25 02:33:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 25/08/2003 02:36:52
Quote:
It has the lowest cpu, lowest shield, lowest structure, lowest drone space of all lvl2 bs, and is 5m/s slower then megathron.
Lowest CPU - we had that already. And it's by FAR the most easiest stat to fix in eve. And all other "weaknesses" are shared with other ships.
Lowest shield - same shield as the megathron.
lowest structure - incorrect, the raven has the lowest structure, apoc has the same as the tempest in the middle field (nevermind that structure is worth only very little, since it has no damage res at all. 100 armor = ~200 structure.
Lowest drone space: same as tempest and raven
While for it's pros it's always the sole king, the next ship in line as a good amount less.
Armor: 4800 (apoc) - 4250 (mega)
Cap: 4800 (apoc) - 4500 (mega)
Cap recharge (withoput any skills exept those you ned to fly the ships): 5.11 (apoc) - 4.6 (mega, tempest, raven)
Grid: 15000 (apoc) - 12500 (tempest) (btw - doesn't anyone find it strange that a minmatar ship - which favourite weapons are pros - which use less grid than hybrids - has a bigger grid than the mega?)
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.25 02:52:00 -
[8]
Nevermind that you'll still need an enhancer for most mega and apoc outfits. And nevermind, too, that enhancers are not much worth ATM either way, since even the "rare" ones are quite common.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.25 09:09:00 -
[9]
Quote:
And wat about the dominix?, i think it needs an xtra highslot and maybie a decrease in dronebay or a mediumslot.
No, the domi is just right. It's the best non-pvp lvl1 ship IMO.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.25 11:42:00 -
[10]
A radar of 50 won't use you much if the scorp reduces your targeting range to 5 km 
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.25 12:40:00 -
[11]
Brilliant argument. With that we wouldn't had to "suffer" an balancing. Pro's uber - it's supposed to be that way. Tachyon having tracking of hybrid blasters - it's supposed to be that way.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.25 18:21:00 -
[12]
Same here - I don't want to give up a med slot.
The tempest looks now nice, though - 5 med and 6 low. If it only wouldn't be so ugly.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.25 19:55:00 -
[13]
*watches Eilora slapping a random bystander*
Er - Hello? I'm over here.
*handsa leaflet about glasses & a magnifying lens to Eilora*
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.26 09:32:00 -
[14]
Fly a gallente BS then 
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.26 22:43:00 -
[15]
Granted, but 2 drones more doesn't make much of a difference. The single turret of the Apoc does more damage than those.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.27 10:54:00 -
[16]
The Raven has already the most medium slots of all lvl2 BS, it doesn't needs one more. The scorp is the special ops BS, not the Raven. Raven & scorp have a pretty similar relationship like the Moa & the BB.
The Raven doesn't lives up as a damagedealer like the moa, though, but that is for a big part because of the missle weakness. It could use another turret slot IMO, though.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.27 20:07:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 27/08/2003 20:09:17
Er.. Could you tell me why the hell this setup needs sensor boosters? To be able to get a lock fast, so it can jam the other ship AFAP?
Anyway, this setup is for a superior attack force. I tried a similar setup in 1v1 against a LR laser amarr ship - from 40 km out. I was able to kill it with 20% armor damage - but only because I used SH, if I didn't I would have been toast before I could reach it.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.28 21:56:00 -
[18]
I'm still the opinion that a ship will SH will beat *all other* setups without SH - exept they use target jamming.
Contact me and I'll prove it to you on chaos (or you'll prove your point to me
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.29 21:49:00 -
[19]
Keep calm, she wasn't really suggesting those damages, she was just stating the torps cost too much for their damage.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.30 10:26:00 -
[20]
Ah, such posts always remind me to point out that the apoc has a WAY too high grid compared to the other lvl2 BS
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.30 16:47:00 -
[21]
Quote:
not really, i just have six reactor control units on it. :)
total grid 31,288. 
Figured that already, even the apoc can't have as much with its grid.
A mega would have 25k with 6 reactors, though. Either the apoc needs a nerf or the mega needs some love, though. Both ships are similar, but the mega is worse than the apoc in almost all categorys. It's only strenght are 1000 more dronebay *cough*
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.30 17:06:00 -
[22]
Yes, 13-13.5k grid would be perfectly for the mega.
200+ shields - could be an idea. The high grid and armor of the amarr cruisers is somewhat balanced by them having a lower shield than all other cruisers, this is not given with the amarr BS. (Yes, the apoc has the lowest lvl2 BS shield, but thats not = "the lowest shield of all BS" - it shares the lowest shield with the mega.)
Still, I would rather have a 5th med slot than 200 more shield, but that would probably overpower the mega slightly
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.31 18:22:00 -
[23]
Well, SH work against missle damage as well.
Still, his points are not really valid.
1.) Why no defenders? Because you can mount less guns then? Well, be my guest, fill your ship with guns until it's bursting, but don't whine if someone with missles kills you.
Sure, there are ships with no launcher slots, but there you can use
2.) smartbombs - and there are some with less grid as well, btw. Their timing will be cruicial, though, especially since missles are much faster now. Perhpas the activation time of SB has to be reduced somewhat (5 secs?) to balance them against the new missle speed.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.01 05:47:00 -
[24]
Quote:
Everyone knew it upfront. There is no need to change something, where all knew exactly what they get. Also your tier1 - tier 2 argument implies superiority in general of tier 2 battleships over tier 1 battleships.
I cant find the passage telling me this about tier 1 vs tier 2 neither in manual, nor in help, nor on eve-online.com. Did i miss something?
You don't really believe your own argument, od you? If yes, you have my pity for being extremly shortsighted.
You could say that as well for the dual scout 425, do dig out that dead horse again. Everyone knew they were too good, everyone could get them, so why bother balancing them? Rrrright.
ATM - on tranq - lvl1 BS (you might have seen that some BS require lvl1 to be low and others lvl2 in the BS skill, that is the tier thingy people are speaking of) are better than lvl2 BS, while lvl2 BS are more expensive than lvl1 BS -> Imbalance.
If you think that balancing things is a bad idea, well, don't let the door catch you on your way out.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.01 14:10:00 -
[25]
1.) Why? It will be in exactly the same situation as other ships. Will it sacrifice some of it's damage potential in order to protect itself against missle or will it go for max damage with the danger of being killed by a misslespammer.
There's no difference between a raven using two missleslots with defender or a apoc using two turretslots for them.
2.) A ship with 2 launchers with defenders won't be ale to kill all incoming missles from a ship with 5-6 launchers firing - but it doesn't needs to either. It just needs to kill enough missles so it will make more damage to the missle ship than the missle ship will deal to it.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.01 20:37:00 -
[26]
Yes, most mega and tempest outfits still need a enhancer. You can equip them that way that they don't need one, but those outfits are not really effective.
And even if the mega would have gotten +200 cpu bonus the apoc would still be better. The apoc can fit 1 cpu enhancer and would have around as much cpu, but the mega needs to fit 2 reactor controls and still has less grid than the apoc.
If lasers would have a bigger grid need than rail that would be ok, but that haven't.
Even with the current upgrades, the mega is still a lot worse than the apoc.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 07:54:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Lasers just got changed - they need more grid. Looks like you got your wish.
Sure, blame it on me
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 12:02:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 02/09/2003 12:04:21
Quote:
Exactly. To balance it, CCP could have simply introduced tech 2 later on and live with the current imbalance. Changing a running system is imho stupid - nothing to count on for players, everything changes time and time again. Invests spoiled and so on.
Not changing it is stupid. They key for mmorpgs is diversity - if everything is the same (which it WILL be if one item is too strong - just take a look which indys are used most if you want prove for that) it get's boring and predictable.
The key is to adapt for changes. I used dual 425 scouts when they were nerfed. So? I changed my tactics. My corp was mining rare ores heavily in empire space when they moved those to the rim. So? We moved, too. If you want a static universe play a SP game.
Nevermind that with the argument you can argue against new techlevels as well - because those will have exactly the same effect.
Quote:
Lemme guess, you decided for a low end or gimped battleship or weapon line and cant await to get a boost on your poor choice? TomB may fall for it - but not me. The greed of your kind destroys a game.
Always interesting how people always assume one is using the items they try to defend. FYI, I have currently a Dominix and a Scorp, mainly because I saw long ago that lvl2 BS are not worth it atm for their price.
Believe it or not, some people can be objective and don't try to lobby their own items.
Quote:
Better and worse ship? You sir got no clue. There is more than 1vs1 PvP. Which is apparently the only thing you can think of. Again for your kind: battleships offer different options in different situations where they are good at. So in general Apoc > Armageddon, but in 1vs1 PvP Arma > Apoc. Same for the other battleships. Give it a try - ratonal thinking helps.
With all due respect: you have no clue. It's exactly the other way around. With the current chaos changes, mind you, atm on tranq a arma is better than a apoc in both areas.
In fleet battles it's best if you have specialized teams, a BB to disable/weaken the target and a arma as damage dealer.
WHile in a 1v1 situation a apoc will beat a arma, since it can use one med slot more, which can be *very* important in a 1v1 battle.
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